Vitamin Dosing Using NutriDiet Mealworms.

Post questions you have about keeping Oscars here.

Vitamin Dosing Using NutriDiet Mealworms.

Postby Kmuda » Sun Feb 10, 2008 9:01 pm

I no longer soak my Oscar's pellets in Vita-Chem. I have started giving my Oscar his vitamins by injecting the vitamins into SeaChem NutriDiet Mealworms.

Below are the items I use. Pretty simple, an insulin needle, the Mealworms, and Vitachem.
Image

The below pic is of the mealworm prior to the injection of vitamins:
Image

This pic is of the mealworm being injected. It is a really easy process. The mealworm will appear to come alive, growing by about 1/3 of it's body length and width, as the vitamin is injected.
Image

When done properly (not over injected), the mealworm holds the vitamin perfectly. No waste, no danger of degrading the quality of your pellet food, and your Oscar gets all of the vitamin inside him when he swallows the worm.

This same process would work wonderfully if a need exists to dose with antibaterial medication or metro. The fish love the mealworms and the mealworm body casing makes an excellent container for the liquid vitamin or medications.

So for the hardcore fish enthusiast, a new way to dose and a new use for SeaChem Nutra-Diet Mealworms.
100g- Red Oscar Fish, Male Convict, 3 SDs - 20 gallon sump
55g - 21 Year Old Kissing Gourami + friends
55g - Angelfish - 29g Livebearer Community
4 Cats, 2 Shelties, 1 wife, 1 old lady, and one of the sub-adults broke back in.
User avatar
Kmuda
Mad Scientist
Mad Scientist
 
Posts: 16556
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2006 8:13 pm
Location: Fort Smith, Arkansas

Re: Vitamin Dosing Using NutraDiet Mealworms.

Postby sprout » Sun Feb 10, 2008 9:11 pm

So Kmuda, another great idea, my O loves those meal worms. I might have to give that a try. Especially since she's recently begun to be some what picky about her pellets.
Kmuda wrote:Someone broke out the crack pipe with that advice. :roll:

150g George(the teacup oscar), Macy(the severum),Paul(tiger oscar), and King Ralph(striped raphael catfish)
75g Thing One (Chocolate Cichlid)
55g Bruce (RDx?)
User avatar
sprout
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 9013
Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2006 1:08 am
Location: California Md

Re: Vitamin Dosing Using NutraDiet Mealworms.

Postby Al'Thor » Mon Feb 11, 2008 2:54 am

You ARE a mad scientist, aren't you? :lol: I'm going to give it a try. Since there's a big difference between the gusto my fish go after unsoaked pellets vs. the ho-hum approach to the vitamin soaked pellets, this might be a good way to sneak them their vitamins. I do wonder if there's much loss through the gills when they 'pop' their treat though.
180-Oscar, JD, Texas, Convict, Dollar Sunfish, SD's
75-Hoplarchus Psittacus, Uaru, Pictus Cat
User avatar
Al'Thor
Oscarfish Executive Chef
 
Posts: 2736
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2006 4:10 pm
Location: St. Paul, Mn

Re: Vitamin Dosing Using NutraDiet Mealworms.

Postby mrs fish » Mon Feb 11, 2008 4:20 am

It is not easy getting hold of syringes unless you are diabetic or a junkie :|

Good idea though :P
Image I love my river dog
User avatar
mrs fish
RIP
 
Posts: 5901
Joined: Mon Feb 07, 2005 2:05 pm
Location: Planet Earth

Re: Vitamin Dosing Using NutraDiet Mealworms.

Postby Kmuda » Mon Feb 11, 2008 8:16 am

Al'Thor wrote:You ARE a mad scientist, aren't you? :lol: I'm going to give it a try. Since there's a big difference between the gusto my fish go after unsoaked pellets vs. the ho-hum approach to the vitamin soaked pellets, this might be a good way to sneak them their vitamins. I do wonder if there's much loss through the gills when they 'pop' their treat though.


I have not noticed anythin cloudy coming out of the gills when he is eating the mealworms so I assume he is getting it down. The mealworms are pretty small, so not much "munching" is required.
100g- Red Oscar Fish, Male Convict, 3 SDs - 20 gallon sump
55g - 21 Year Old Kissing Gourami + friends
55g - Angelfish - 29g Livebearer Community
4 Cats, 2 Shelties, 1 wife, 1 old lady, and one of the sub-adults broke back in.
User avatar
Kmuda
Mad Scientist
Mad Scientist
 
Posts: 16556
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2006 8:13 pm
Location: Fort Smith, Arkansas

Re: Vitamin Dosing Using NutraDiet Mealworms.

Postby Al'Thor » Mon Feb 11, 2008 12:50 pm

Cool. That's what I was hoping to hear. I'll be giving this a try, thanks for the good idea!
180-Oscar, JD, Texas, Convict, Dollar Sunfish, SD's
75-Hoplarchus Psittacus, Uaru, Pictus Cat
User avatar
Al'Thor
Oscarfish Executive Chef
 
Posts: 2736
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2006 4:10 pm
Location: St. Paul, Mn

Re: Vitamin Dosing Using NutraDiet Mealworms.

Postby sprout » Mon Feb 11, 2008 5:46 pm

mrs fish wrote:It is not easy getting hold of syringes unless you are diabetic or a junkie :|

Good idea though :P


I picked up an insulin syringe at CVS today. The pharmacist asked why I wanted one, and thinks I'm nuts but he gave me one. I'll be sneaking a vitamin dosed meal worm in her treats tonight.
Kmuda wrote:Someone broke out the crack pipe with that advice. :roll:

150g George(the teacup oscar), Macy(the severum),Paul(tiger oscar), and King Ralph(striped raphael catfish)
75g Thing One (Chocolate Cichlid)
55g Bruce (RDx?)
User avatar
sprout
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 9013
Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2006 1:08 am
Location: California Md

Re: Vitamin Dosing Using NutraDiet Mealworms.

Postby Al'Thor » Mon Feb 11, 2008 7:44 pm

sprout wrote:
mrs fish wrote:It is not easy getting hold of syringes unless you are diabetic or a junkie :|


I picked up an insulin syringe at CVS today. The pharmacist asked why I wanted one, and thinks I'm nuts but he gave me one.


I did the same thing at my Walgreen's today......except I told him I was a junkie. He didn't find it quite as amusing as I intended. When I told him what it was really for, he looked at me like he believed me the first time and I was going to go shoot dope. Oh well! :sleepy3:
180-Oscar, JD, Texas, Convict, Dollar Sunfish, SD's
75-Hoplarchus Psittacus, Uaru, Pictus Cat
User avatar
Al'Thor
Oscarfish Executive Chef
 
Posts: 2736
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2006 4:10 pm
Location: St. Paul, Mn

Re: Vitamin Dosing Using NutraDiet Mealworms.

Postby Kmuda » Mon Feb 11, 2008 8:40 pm

I'm growing my hair out again for "Locks for love". Last haircut was almost 1 year ago so I am looking a little hippyish. No way would a pharmacist sell me a needle. Fortunately, my nephew, who had the heart transplant a while back, still has a box of insulin syringes. I've only used one thus far. After use, I soak it in hydrogen peroxide to clean it out.
100g- Red Oscar Fish, Male Convict, 3 SDs - 20 gallon sump
55g - 21 Year Old Kissing Gourami + friends
55g - Angelfish - 29g Livebearer Community
4 Cats, 2 Shelties, 1 wife, 1 old lady, and one of the sub-adults broke back in.
User avatar
Kmuda
Mad Scientist
Mad Scientist
 
Posts: 16556
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2006 8:13 pm
Location: Fort Smith, Arkansas

Re: Vitamin Dosing Using NutraDiet Mealworms.

Postby ELIJAH » Tue Feb 12, 2008 10:46 am

I was sooo happy to see this post - I just ran into a problem this weekend with my 4 inch oscar not wanting to eat his pellets that had vita-chem on them.

I would like to try this new method but how much do you inject and how often do they need the vitamins???

Thank you.
90 Gallon Tank - one Oscar
65 Gallon Breeder Tank - one Jack Dempsey
29 Gallon Tank - Community Fish
User avatar
ELIJAH
Apistogramma agassizii
 
Posts: 183
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 4:33 pm

Re: Vitamin Dosing Using NutraDiet Mealworms.

Postby Kmuda » Tue Feb 12, 2008 2:19 pm

My Oscar gets three or four mealworms per feeding, each injected full of Vita-Chem (I do not feed on Tuesday and Thursday) and a single mealworm injected with VitaChem on Tuesday and Thursday. How much Vita-Chem this is, I do not know. More than he would get from soaking pellets. You could probably get by with a single Mealworm injected per day.
100g- Red Oscar Fish, Male Convict, 3 SDs - 20 gallon sump
55g - 21 Year Old Kissing Gourami + friends
55g - Angelfish - 29g Livebearer Community
4 Cats, 2 Shelties, 1 wife, 1 old lady, and one of the sub-adults broke back in.
User avatar
Kmuda
Mad Scientist
Mad Scientist
 
Posts: 16556
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2006 8:13 pm
Location: Fort Smith, Arkansas

Re: Vitamin Dosing Using NutraDiet Mealworms.

Postby scrivz » Tue Feb 12, 2008 2:51 pm

Do you ever worry about vitamin toxicity in your O's? I know that in humans vitamins A, D, and B6 can all be harmful (even fatal) if consumed at high levels, and it sounds like you're giving your O's a ton of Boyd's, which has all three of these. With people the common misconception is that more vitamins = better health, but (with the possible exception of folic acid) this just isn't true.

NIH Links for vitamin toxicity in humans, maybe the mechanisms are also applicable to fish:
Vitamin A - http://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/vitamina.asp
Vitamin B6 - http://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/vitaminb6.asp
Vitamin D - http://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/vitamind.asp
User avatar
scrivz
Advice Team
Advice Team
 
Posts: 3271
Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2007 10:38 am
Location: in a metro area against my will

Re: Vitamin Dosing Using NutraDiet Mealworms.

Postby Ted » Tue Feb 12, 2008 3:23 pm

It is possible. The following link contains limited information in section 5.2 It does not state any levels for the different vitamins, but it does give some symptoms...

http://www.fao.org/DOCREP/003/T0700E/T0700E00.HTM
"We are made of star stuff." -Carl Sagan
User avatar
Ted
Admin formerly known as Polystigma
Admin formerly known as Polystigma
 
Posts: 9840
Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2001 2:01 am
Location: Auburndale, Florida

Re: Vitamin Dosing Using NutraDiet Mealworms.

Postby Kmuda » Tue Feb 12, 2008 8:33 pm

Me thinks you are greatly over estimating the amount of VitaChem a NutraDiet Mealworm will hold. ;)
Last edited by Kmuda on Tue Feb 12, 2008 11:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
100g- Red Oscar Fish, Male Convict, 3 SDs - 20 gallon sump
55g - 21 Year Old Kissing Gourami + friends
55g - Angelfish - 29g Livebearer Community
4 Cats, 2 Shelties, 1 wife, 1 old lady, and one of the sub-adults broke back in.
User avatar
Kmuda
Mad Scientist
Mad Scientist
 
Posts: 16556
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2006 8:13 pm
Location: Fort Smith, Arkansas

Re: Vitamin Dosing Using NutraDiet Mealworms.

Postby scrivz » Tue Feb 12, 2008 11:17 pm

I found some info on Vitamin A toxicity in 'bows. http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/reprint/113/9/1737.pdf

After doing a little math I figured out that, if O's have the same dangerous levels of vitamin A as rainbow trout, you would have to be giving them a ton of Boyd's Vita-Chem to reach harmful levels. 904,000 IU of Vitamin A per kg of diet is the upper limit before you risk negative effects. If you're feeding Hikari Bio Gold + as your staple food item, that is 26,000 IU/kg of vitaming A per kg diet. That means that in the time it takes you to feed one 8.8 ounce bag of pellets to your O you'd have to give it 43.9 ounces of Boyd's VitaChem (at 5000 IU/oz). That's assuming it's not getting vitamin A from any other source, which is inaccurate, but there's a pretty large margin of safety around this. As long as you don't go through more than two pints of Boyd's for every bag of pellets your O eats, you're probably not encroaching on the danger zone.

I feel fairly confident that nobody out there has the patience to inject 44 ounces of VitaChem into the number of mealworms that that would require. Those with the syringes can elaborate on how many mL will fit into a nutrafin mealworm, but I bet it's not much. I'm guessing a 1/4 of a mL or so at most, which means 44 ounces is more than 5000 mealworms.

Note: for those of you who use liquid Centrum for your O's, it has about half the amount of vitamin A per unit volume that Boyd's does, so you're also safe when it comes to vitamin A toxicity. I'm not going to do the calculations for the other potentially harmful vitamins. If you're concerned about it, do it yourself, the math is easy.

It really says a lot about how badly I want to avoid studying neuro that I do this much research and calculations as a form of procrastination... I hope it was at least somewhat informative to some of y'all.
User avatar
scrivz
Advice Team
Advice Team
 
Posts: 3271
Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2007 10:38 am
Location: in a metro area against my will

Re: Vitamin Dosing Using NutraDiet Mealworms.

Postby Kmuda » Tue Feb 12, 2008 11:24 pm

You have officially been labeled a geek. :lol:

Welcome to the club. :ugeek:
100g- Red Oscar Fish, Male Convict, 3 SDs - 20 gallon sump
55g - 21 Year Old Kissing Gourami + friends
55g - Angelfish - 29g Livebearer Community
4 Cats, 2 Shelties, 1 wife, 1 old lady, and one of the sub-adults broke back in.
User avatar
Kmuda
Mad Scientist
Mad Scientist
 
Posts: 16556
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2006 8:13 pm
Location: Fort Smith, Arkansas

Re: Vitamin Dosing Using NutraDiet Mealworms.

Postby scrivz » Tue Feb 12, 2008 11:32 pm

Kmuda wrote:You have officially been labeled a geek. :lol:

Welcome to the club. :ugeek:


Well gee golly gosh, I'm just so freakin' proud I could burst. Do I get a trophy or something? Maybe a decoder ring? I came to terms with being a geek a long time ago, I'm just relieved that the members of this forum now know my true colors.
User avatar
scrivz
Advice Team
Advice Team
 
Posts: 3271
Joined: Thu Nov 29, 2007 10:38 am
Location: in a metro area against my will

Re: Vitamin Dosing Using NutraDiet Mealworms.

Postby Al'Thor » Wed Feb 13, 2008 2:11 am

scrivz wrote:I hope it was at least somewhat informative to some of y'all.


It was.

scrivz wrote:I'm just relieved that the members of this forum now know my true colors.


We do. :lol:
180-Oscar, JD, Texas, Convict, Dollar Sunfish, SD's
75-Hoplarchus Psittacus, Uaru, Pictus Cat
User avatar
Al'Thor
Oscarfish Executive Chef
 
Posts: 2736
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2006 4:10 pm
Location: St. Paul, Mn

Re: Vitamin Dosing Using NutraDiet Mealworms.

Postby Big Vine » Wed Feb 13, 2008 1:59 pm

Dang it, I should've kept some of those syringes the vet 'gave' (sold, really) me for my oscar's Baytril injections! :banghead: :angry7:
BV
75 gal. - 11" tiger oscar
User avatar
Big Vine
Astronotus ocellatus
 
Posts: 1182
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2007 3:15 pm
Location: Florida

Re: Vitamin Dosing Using NutraDiet Mealworms.

Postby sprout » Wed Feb 13, 2008 7:39 pm

scrivz wrote:
Kmuda wrote:You have officially been labeled a geek. :lol:

Welcome to the club. :ugeek:


Well gee golly gosh, I'm just so freakin' proud I could burst. Do I get a trophy or something? Maybe a decoder ring? I came to terms with being a geek a long time ago, I'm just relieved that the members of this forum now know my true colors.


Welcome to the geek club........we have t-shirts. You can get yours at the O-fish store.

I fed my O 2 vitamin injected meal worms yesterday. She ate them with no issues and begged for more. O and for the record those little meal worms don't hold much, and you can pop one.
Kmuda wrote:Someone broke out the crack pipe with that advice. :roll:

150g George(the teacup oscar), Macy(the severum),Paul(tiger oscar), and King Ralph(striped raphael catfish)
75g Thing One (Chocolate Cichlid)
55g Bruce (RDx?)
User avatar
sprout
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 9013
Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2006 1:08 am
Location: California Md

Re: Vitamin Dosing Using NutraDiet Mealworms.

Postby Kmuda » Wed Feb 13, 2008 9:37 pm

Yep, I've popped a few. You inject them just to the point they stop "growing" and then stop. With a little experience you find that sweet spot where they are plump with vitamin but don't pop. It's become a "thing" at my house. Whenever my kids have friends over, they have to bring them around to see me inject the mealworms. I usually try and pop onr or two to spray them with vitachem and mealworm juice. :twisted:
100g- Red Oscar Fish, Male Convict, 3 SDs - 20 gallon sump
55g - 21 Year Old Kissing Gourami + friends
55g - Angelfish - 29g Livebearer Community
4 Cats, 2 Shelties, 1 wife, 1 old lady, and one of the sub-adults broke back in.
User avatar
Kmuda
Mad Scientist
Mad Scientist
 
Posts: 16556
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2006 8:13 pm
Location: Fort Smith, Arkansas

Re: Vitamin Dosing Using NutraDiet Mealworms.

Postby sprout » Wed Feb 13, 2008 11:07 pm

Funny you should say that, my son, the boy scout squealed like a girl when the mealworm popped and worm juice and gunk hit him in the face...........I laughed, he got mad, good times!!!!!! :evil4:
Kmuda wrote:Someone broke out the crack pipe with that advice. :roll:

150g George(the teacup oscar), Macy(the severum),Paul(tiger oscar), and King Ralph(striped raphael catfish)
75g Thing One (Chocolate Cichlid)
55g Bruce (RDx?)
User avatar
sprout
Moderator
Moderator
 
Posts: 9013
Joined: Sat Jan 14, 2006 1:08 am
Location: California Md

Re: Vitamin Dosing Using NutraDiet Mealworms.

Postby lumbergh » Thu Feb 14, 2008 12:49 am

where do you get the mealworms at?
90G
1 Salvini, 1 Convict
lumbergh
Symphysodon discus
 
Posts: 281
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2007 5:02 pm

Re: Vitamin Dosing Using NutraDiet Mealworms.

Postby Kmuda » Thu Feb 14, 2008 8:04 am

I get all of my food online from http://www.drsfostersmith.com and http://www.bigalsonline.com , including NutriDiet Mealworms.
100g- Red Oscar Fish, Male Convict, 3 SDs - 20 gallon sump
55g - 21 Year Old Kissing Gourami + friends
55g - Angelfish - 29g Livebearer Community
4 Cats, 2 Shelties, 1 wife, 1 old lady, and one of the sub-adults broke back in.
User avatar
Kmuda
Mad Scientist
Mad Scientist
 
Posts: 16556
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2006 8:13 pm
Location: Fort Smith, Arkansas

Re: Vitamin Dosing Using NutraDiet Mealworms.

Postby Kmuda » Sun Feb 17, 2008 9:58 am

Bump.... in response to a question on the subject.
100g- Red Oscar Fish, Male Convict, 3 SDs - 20 gallon sump
55g - 21 Year Old Kissing Gourami + friends
55g - Angelfish - 29g Livebearer Community
4 Cats, 2 Shelties, 1 wife, 1 old lady, and one of the sub-adults broke back in.
User avatar
Kmuda
Mad Scientist
Mad Scientist
 
Posts: 16556
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2006 8:13 pm
Location: Fort Smith, Arkansas

Next

Return to Oscar Fish Help & Advice

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest